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It has not yet been formally described (as with the species on most other hosts), and we don't use provisional names on iNaturalist. I am keeping this draft until the other species in this complex are described, then the split can be committed. I implemented the complex because one species was recently described in it other than Hesperomyces virescens (Hesperomyces halyziae, which was added to the database).
@jameskm @pmeisenheimer @dhaelewa Update swap to reflect current knowledge about this complex.
just to throw an idea out there, I think it would be useful to turn all H. virescens complex identifications into H. harmoniae. 99.999% of observations are on H. axyridis, so it would be much, much, MUCH easier for a couple of people to go through all of the (now) H. harmoniae observations and bump up the observations that aren't on H. axyridis. Even without doing this, the data would more accurately reflect the reality. If a couple of people are willing to do this, we could get to a quite accurate set of data orders of magnitude faster and more efficiently than by having to go through each and every observation and re-ID everything. Especially because people love piling on IDs, so many observations would require a number of IDs from different people to get them to the right ID.
Maybe @michieldg would like to weigh in, he's been adding ID's lately, and my approach would certainly make his life easier
I was talking with @nschwab about this, too. I've been trying to weed out at least those observations that have Hesperomyces virescens as Research Grade, which are definitely wrong (He. virescens (s.s. and s.l.) are found on Chilocorus sp., and I haven't seen a single one of those on iNat). Bumping everything to He. harmoniae would definitely be very helpful and save a ton of time. I've been saving observations that have Hesperomyces on a host that isn't Harmonia, so changing the ID there should be pretty easy.
@davidenrique @michieldg Swapping all these observations would be useful but I don't know what we're supposed to do in this case. It would be nice to have "Bump" swap type which would change anything to the taxonomy on iNaturalist but push the identifications like a normal swap. This is very useful for misapplied names...
Is that not something that's possible? Like @davidenrique said, even bulk changing the genus would make the IDs much more accurate across the board, and then a few users can easily fix those with different hosts. The observations that are now Complex He. virescens are technically correct, but there's another 1350 observations of He. virescens that are absolutely incorrect. It's doable but pretty menial work.
Part of the reason too is that leaving this taxon swap until every single species is formally described could take decades (some of them are very rare, it's unlikely that the list above has all of them, and Laboulbeniales are awful to gather DNA from).
@michieldg Yes, it's indeed possible to do the swap and then change the taxonomy after that. However, I don't know how I am supposed to act. As this is very resource heavy to do a swap with this many observations I prefer to tag an administrator for advice.
@loarie Can you provide me some guidance on this case? Thank you very much for your time!
In the interests of moving this on, I've just gone through the H. virescens observations for Ontario and Quebec and IDed them as either H. harmoniae or H.v. Complex. I've asked the mods if we could open a forum topic to solicit local volunteers to go through the observations in their locales. Not sure whether that's a proper application of the forum but this is a citizen science venue so it seems reasonable enough that it's worth asking.
We want to avoid the slippery slope of using taxon changes to reID observations as a shortcut to identifying. I know its tedious but thats what IDing is for.
Taxon changes should only be used to change the taxonomy (e.g. input becomes inactive, output inactive).
The exceptions are retroactive splits where the input is one of the outputs, but those should be reserved from situations where the taxonomy did change (e.g. what we mean by X used to be broader but due to a taxonomic change is now narrower and a bunch of existing IDs became out of sync). Retroactive splits do push IDs around either to specific outputs (if atlases are used) or to the common ancestor, but the intention is to resolve IDs that became out of sync with the taxonomy from an early taxonomic change.
If you split this as is it will roll all IDs of Species Hesperomyces virescens back to Complex Hesperomyces virescens which will then have to be rolled forward with manual IDs to species like Species Hesperomyces harmoniae. I know this is more tedious than swapping from Species Hesperomyces virescens directly to Species Hesperomyces harmoniae and then reactivating Species Hesperomyces virescens. But please don't do that as it violates this spirit of not using taxon changes as a short cut to making IDs.
Thanks for all the IDing and curation work!
Thanks for the explanation, I understand the philosophy.
It's a bit of an unusual situation here where the species used to be correct but now isn't (not just a small split) - at the time that Hesperomyces virescens s.l. was ID'd on ~1800 observations, this was correct. But now, because that one species holds many cryptic ones, those IDs are all wrong, through no fault of anyone. That means there's now a lot of observations that we know are wrong, sometimes with a dozen or so IDs by people clicking agree, which will be incredibly hard to change.
Rolling it backwards to Complex Hesperomyces virescens at least helps correct the observations from all being wrong - am I reading it right in that that's what you're planning to do? That already helps a lot.
yes - this split as currently structured would replace all existing IDs of Species Hesperomyces virescens (362821) with those of common ancestor Complex Hesperomyces virescens (1267749). Which is what I recommend. And as you say will solve the issue of obs being incorrectly ID'd, rather just coarsely ID'd at the Complex level.
And to remedy the coarsely ID'd issue, the subsequent task would be to manually add species IDs to obs sitting at Complex Hesperomyces virescens (1267749), which is a bit tedious but can be done via:
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/identify?reviewed=any&quality_grade=needs_id%2Cresearch&verifiable=true&taxon_id=1267749&preferred_place_id=1&locale=en
I understand the argument, but I disagree with it. Slippery slope arguments can be valid, but only if there is a very clear and fairly unavoidable sequence of events that leads from one thing to the next. In this case, I think it's more of a slippery slope fallacy. There is no reason why the taxon change strategy I proposed would invariably lead to abuse of the taxon curation system. We have very good and clear reasons to do it, and I think the strategy is a good one in other similar cases as well. It always bothers me when the only argument for not doing something in one particular case is that we shouldn't do it in OTHER, unrelated cases. That's not an argument for not doing something in the particular case in question.
I think that two of the main criteria for making taxon changes should be whether they are useful and whether they allow the data to more closely reflect reality. In this case, turning H. virescens complex IDs into H. harmoniae IDs would make the observation data set FAR more accurate and useful, and it would also save people a LOT of work. Work that could be spent improving other iNat taxa rather than wasting it doing work that doesn't need to be done. If the slippery slope fallacy is a concern, then we could set the precedent that taxon changes like these need the approval of an administrator. That additional level of quality assurance should make the slope a whole lot less slippery.
One of the reasons why I love the iNat system is because it is so powerful. I don't think we should be afraid of harnessing the power for good. We should be careful, sure, but not using the tools we have available to the best of our ability is something we should also be afraid of.
I just want to weigh in quickly with notes on the taxonomy of this species complex, which is ongoing:
He. virescens sensu stricto (the species in the strict sense) is only found on Chilocorus stigma in the USA.
He. virescens on Chilocorus bipustulatus is /not/ He. virescens s.s. but it falls in the species complex (He. virescens sensu lato).
The other species in the species complex (listed below) are currently undescribed but we are working hard to get them formally published so this complex can be fully resolved, also here in iNat. I do think that the vast majority of records are of He. harmoniae. Most changes of the complex will be to He. harmoniae with probably a handful of exceptions.
The species on Adalia bipunctata and A. decempunctata is undescribed.
The species on Azya orbigera is undescribed.
The species on Cheilomenes propinqua is undescribed.
The species on Cycloneda sanguinea is undescribed.
The species on Hippodamia tredecimpunctata and H. variegata is undescribed.
The species on Olla v-nigrum is undescribed.
The species on Psyllobora vigintimaculata is undescribed.
@dhaelewa @michieldg If you want to have a look at them.
All these observations are incorrectly listed as Hesperomyces virescens and are not Hesperomyces harmoniae either.
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/2010658
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/803544
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/3773422
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/14327958
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/16298609
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/16735421
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/31025307
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/33847331
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/33806282
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/46901150
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/46901130
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/49181060
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/64681965
And for those I don't know.
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/8263039
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/6902036
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/6528794
What should be done about some observations where the user has opted out of community ID, so their observation still shows up as H. vierscens even though multiple people have tried to push it to complex level or to H. harmoniae? I've tried to notify these individuals and some have changed their IDs but others haven't been active in awhile.
At least one of the individuals opted out of community ID is deceased. If I understand @loarie , the He. v. IDs are going to revert to Complex He.v. at some point, which should deal with that issue. At any rate, last time I checked there were 7 He.v. IDs in the system. That didn't take long.
Most of the Hesperomyces observations have now been checked and changed, thanks so much to everyone that helped! There's a few stragglers in the oldest observations; if someone has time, going backwards from the last page would helps a lot to get the last few observations sorted out.
@dhaelewa Was chatting about this in an observation (https://inaturalist.ca/observations/92293594 ) and it was suggested that you might have insight into what's going on with this complex.
Do you know anything about the status of Hesperomyces harmoniae? Is it still awaiting formal description? It seems to have come out of the same work that led to other species designations in the complex: https://beetlehangers.org/info/Haelewaters2019.pdf .